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TGB bullet RS lacks top speed

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gibsonandpickett

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Hi Macca. I have put the racing variator back on scooter with 6 gram sliders, Its a dog of the line now and has good to end. I think i will end up putting stock variator back in with some slightly ligher weights. Oily what would the 1500 rpm spring do?  I have tried just putting the clutch springs in but that just killed my top end. 45kpm max.


harry

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you need to do both main and clutch for them to have any effect
,with higher rpms  the take off will be better with the 1500.
what variator do you have ? 

 oilyhans
i own a scooter shop  with rentals ,sales& racing parts.
i also appraise scooters for KBB.

2003 Vino classic stage 0.75
de-reged stock variator w/8g sliding weights.
1.5k rpm  springs
42mph
2005 veniceLX ~70cc~upjet~1.5k rpm springs & 7gr sliders
46mph
KeyWest de restricted~8gr slide


gibsonandpickett

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Hi Harry, Its the racing variator  i bought of you. I tried the clutch springs alone with the standard variator and weights and that killed the top end. Was only pulling  45kph, so have put standard  springs back in. Will pytting the  new clutch springs and 1500 main spring help this. I am going to go down to 3 gram weights. Top speed is huge, 73 kph at moment as it is


gibsonandpickett

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Hey Oily, just been looking through your parts page and saw clutch springs for the tgb. It says these are the only springs that wil fit the stock clutch. I got some springs of you but they didnt fit that well. I had to grind some material of the loop to get them to go in. Was wondering if i got the correct springs and maybe i should buy some more that would fit properly.Any help appreciated.Looking also at getting some 3.5 gram sliders for the performance variator.


kennedyrd

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Hi there all of you. Have read your comments with great interest and just followed what you did. Saved me a heap of messing around thanks! After removing variator spacer and inlet restrictor I have now installed a Technigas Next R pipe on my Bullet RR and initially fitted a 70 main jet. I raised the needle one notch too as it was detonating in the mid range so guessed it was  lean. Helped pick up a lot. Readjusted idle mixture. Needed leaning off a bit.Tried a 76 main and needle all the way up. Too rich and was sluggish. I have some jet drills so drilled my std jet to 66. Goes even better than the 70! Problem now is hits the CDI rev limiter at 9000rpm. Thought it was "4 stroking" from being rich but realised jetting made no difference and it happens exactly at 9000rpm no matter what. Tried a CDI that supposedly has a more aggressive advance but the bike seemed down on power, then wouldn't even start! Threw it away. Going to try a different brand. Understand the crank is weak so possibly the rev limiter is a good idea and try variator weights or gearing. Will do 71 kph whether head or tail wind so pretty happy as std it would only pull 60kph into a head wind lying down! Also hauls arse up hills!

Another free mod I did was to cut all the internal baffling out of the inside of the air box. This really helped. I just and removed the strip of plastic that runs the length of the air box while leaving the "spikes" behind. A "renovator" made short work of it.

Initial pick up from stand still is a bit worse but once rolling it is markedly faster accelerating. I have a Stage 6 brand 70cc kit coming and also have an Oko 17.5mm carb to fit as well. One little trick I found was to use the much easier to obtain 6 mm "short" Dellorto jets, I just got a 5mm washer and drilled it to 6mm to space the short jet to same length as Mikuni jet. I will keep you posted how it all goes if you like. I think this "sports" state of tune will make for a really fun and reliable machine.

I have also got an aftermarket rear shock which I need to lengthen by 25mm. Still for $99 I am not complaining! Also I will try and fit emulators in the front forks to increase give me adjustable bump damping. The handling on roundabouts makes me smile even now. I will keep you posted. If it's good I will post it here.

I am really enjoy this scooter tuning stuff. Compared to my 3 GP race bikes (RS125, RS250 Hondas and TZ250 Yamaha) the tuning is way cheaper (The whole 70cc kit is costing the same as a piston without ring or circlips for GP bikes!) and every bit as satisfying!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:35:27 AM by kennedyrd »


meatshake

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Hi All, been reading through this thread wondering if i can solve any of my problems. It's interesting about running the cooler plug. I will try that tomorrow!

Anyway, about me; I picked up a 2012 bullet 50 myself, which had a motoritec cylinder in it from autotech355 , an il fitting expansion chambeer which looked like a combination of the standard exhaust header welded to maybe a minarelli expansion chamber and the standard mikuni carb, which I think was probably a 12mm?. was running like a total dog when i picked it up. would barely make 60 before it would start to cough and splutter and carry on. I put in a larger jet to start, as I had some mikuni jets laying around from another scooter i have. this made it run smoothly, but it was still incredibly lacking in power. maxing out at about 60km/h.

i ended up buying a larger 21mm dellorto copy carb from germany along with a huge array of jets and replacement needles (more than what i needed probably.) and a stage 6 sport pro exhaust and choke cable and some other bits and bobs.. chucked it all on, and set it all up for a roadworthy. After playing with the jets. I put the largest jet in that would let the scoot run at full throttle smoothly. And just left it at that. The running wasn't perfect, it would splutter alot at partial throttle and was a bit hesitant, but I figure it was just running really rich and I was too lazy to tune it, nor did i care much about this cylinder.

 I rode it for about 1000km over the next few months the running has gradually been deteriorating. But as it was I could max it out down hills to about 75-80km/h (absolute max) before the engine would start restricting the top speed. it would also hold about 70km/h on the flat.

This had started to become less so I thought I'd take the cylinder head off to have a peek to see what's happening in there. I'm faced with a very very tired looking piston, which has a substantial amount of play between the gudgeon pin and the piston (not the needle bearing-gudgeon pin thankfully!). After looking for replacement cylinders for a few months looking for a suitable kit, I end up deciding that I need the stage6 sport pro kit (i have a vmoto milan also with the minarelli engine and a stage6 street race and it goes like an absolute shower of sh**).

fast forward to 2014 after receiving my order for a lightened clutch, stage6 sport pro cylinder and some weights, I've gotten to pulling the engine head off again. Since I last took the head off engine pickup has been a bit less but it still tops out around the same... So I was suprised to see what looks like the piston running into the head and damaging the spark plug. And little nicks all out of the top of the piston...

I install the sport pro cylinder, measure the squish with some solder (after some helpful googling) and end up with 0.8mm squish, which is bangon the manufacturer specification.

This was a couple of days ago. I've had a bit of a play but have yet to adjust the jetting. After pulling the plug it looks it's practically black and dripping with oil (not quite dripping but the plug is very wet..) Either way with this sport pro kit so far, I"m yet to really notice a difference in power over the motoritc kit. IT's almost like the cylinder isn't coming into power band ,but it's revving to 9,500 pretty easily and 10,000 rpm down hills, for the same sorts of speeds to what i mentioned before.

As it is it feels a fair bit slower than the vmoto milan with the lower end kit (this kit will spin the tyre on a damp road if you suprise it with some power band...) The tgb with the sport kit feels dull in comparison, its' almost as though something is restrictioning it some how. I've replaced the CDI with the stage6 unit that is supposed to remove the limiter (although the harness already had a wire cut which i presume must remove the limit as I couldn't really notice any difference before and after. and the stage6 cdi is simply missing the pin that corresponds to the cut wire..

anyway, I would love to see what your results are once you get your stage6 kit in as I'm very curious if it's me or some sort of limitation with this scooter that I'm not noticing.

also re the shock, on my milan I got a pair of shocks of aliexpress with a remote reservoir, which I can use my mountain bike shock pump to pump up to increase the dampening for $100/pr posted. I had to specify that I wanted a shorter size, but I think they come in all sizes to suit many many scooters/bikes. It may be useful for somebody in the future. I also see there is some cheaper units on there these days that appear to be exactly the same.. I find this shock to be a million times better than the stock milan shock as it actually absorbs bumps instead of wallowing about.  At some stage I will probably buy another pair so I can use one on the bullet..


anyway a bit of a speil there. But I look forward to your next update!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 09:03:58 AM by harry »


kennedyrd

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Sorted the CDI restriction at last! Meatshake looks like someone worked it out before me! Basically the brown wire that people cut on the 101's removes the restrictor. TGB I think got wise to this, so now the brown wire supplies power to the stock CDI, and if you cut it, it won't even run. However it is NOT a DC CDI but simply a frustrating anti tamper device.

However when fitting an aftermarket 5 pin CDI it seems if you don't cut the brown wire, even though there is no pin corresponding to it, it blows the CDI. Therefore you need to use an aftermarket CDI AND cut the brown wire. I used a bullet connector so I can re-join it quickly if I ever need to reinstall the stock CDI.

The bad news? I only gained another 400rpm, so there is now a natural restriction to the revs, but I am happy with that and can install the 70cc kit knowing this won't hold it back. Will wait for winter. Am enjoying the scooter too much to have it off the road for the nice weather. Closest thing to a road legal GP bike I know as the weight is similar.

Meatshake, you sound WAAAAY too rich. Just keep decreasing the main jet 1 size at a time until it runs well, then from there only go leaner if the plug looks good. I assume you know how to do a plug chop? Make sure you are flat out and kill the ignition and bring the scooter to a stop as fast as possible. Don't let it idle before you kill the motor. I assume you know what the plug should look like. Check the choke shuts off fully with your new cable system.

We use the solder technique for measuring squish on the GP bikes. My next learning curve is taking a motor out from a scooter. A lot different to a motorbike having to lift the body off the motor!

Once I have installed the 70 cc kit and gears I will repost. Won't be until about May though.

Meatshake? Did you lengthen the throttle cable by making a new longer inner or shortening the outer?





harry

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And little nicks all out of the top of the piston...

 which were most likely made from parts of the needle bearing coming apart.
 unless it was only in the exact middle of the piston only and not
the head too, which is caused by a plug that is too long.

oilyhans


i own a scooter shop  with rentals ,sales& racing parts.
i also appraise scooters for KBB.

2003 Vino classic stage 0.75
de-reged stock variator w/8g sliding weights.
1.5k rpm  springs
42mph
2005 veniceLX ~70cc~upjet~1.5k rpm springs & 7gr sliders
46mph
KeyWest de restricted~8gr slide


meatshake

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which were most likely made from parts of the needle bearing coming apart.
 unless it was only in the exact middle of the piston only and not
the head too, which is caused by a plug that is too long.

oilyhans

The needle bearing was fine as far as I could tell. It was still a nice snug fit up against the gudgeon pin from the stage6 kit (which does not come with a needle bearing!) and did not look like it had been damaged.
The piston on the other hand where it is supposed to be a nice snug fit against the gudgeon pin; what a mess! I'm not sure how debri's would make it around the piston into the chamber but there was a substantial amount of material missing from here, allowing the pin to move about 1mm eccentrically in the piston.

As for the plug I had a closer look and compared it to a new plug. It's only really bent at the tip, no meat missing.

However when fitting an aftermarket 5 pin CDI it seems if you don't cut the brown wire, even though there is no pin corresponding to it, it blows the CDI. Therefore you need to use an aftermarket CDI AND cut the brown wire. I used a bullet connector so I can re-join it quickly if I ever need to reinstall the stock CDI.

Meatshake? Did you lengthen the throttle cable by making a new longer inner or shortening the outer?

Interesting on the CDI. I'm glad somebody figured that out before me sounds like I would have blown the new cdi!
Regardless, with that wire cut on mine, there was no rev limit imposed.. (And I actually think the wire that is cut on mine is green not brown? but i'm not home to check)

Yesterday afternoon, I took the scooter for a bit of a ride to the local repco to buy some spark plugs for my other project a kwaka kh100. While riding it i thought maybe it was running a bit rich, as when I was going WOT it was almost slowing down (but not really just bogging a bit). But when I was doing 60 or so on a flat, and I held the throttle at about 1/8 (probably still in the pilot jet I presume?) it would start to accelerate more until it got into the power band around 9000rpm then really start to hum along - until  I opened the throttle more then it would die.

So last night I started playing with the jets, I took it from an 82MJ to a 72MJ one at a time. With the 82 in everything was looking pretty black and oily. The 72MJ is still a bit black in there but not as bad, and it goes a hell of a lot better. It will now reach 80 on the flat and it kinda felt like it would still pull.

I'm not sure how small I should go on the jets, as the standard jet with the mikuni carb was a 70 or something. I'm lead to believe that bigger diameter = smaller jet but I haven't read that from a credible source.

I was thinking it would be better to run it rich for a while and see how I go.

Do you guys measure the head-temp when tuning? I see some forums where people (I think it was that 90gtvert guy) keep an eye on the head temps when tuning....

Also, I shortened the outer cable and use the original elbow from the mikuni carb, as it was a bit shorter than the one that came with my PHBG fake. The throttle opens right up at WOT with this setup, I see this is a problem on some scooters when bigger carbs are installed.

Also choke is AOK. The cable actually sits a little bit loose in the socket on the carb when the choke is off. I bought the stage6 lever choke one also. Works a treat! Though when the choke is one the engine just wants to die, except for the first few seconds after starting. Nothing like what I remember the choke in my first car being like - which did not want to run at all without the choke for the first 10 minutes!

I notice that the choke on these scooters seems to be a different to what I'm used to do, acting on the fuel side of things


harry

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Do you guys measure the head-temp when tuning? I see some forums where people (I think it was that 90gtvert guy) keep an eye on the head temps when tuning....

 a EGT  gauge is what you are asking about  . you can buy
one for under $200    depending on  which one  , measures 
 the head temp  or the better way to measure the gasses  is to
 drill a hole in the header  and insert the sensor.

but heres a clue  can you put your hand in the exhaust  right at the
tail pipe ?  if you can hold it there for some time  your
probably  ok if it burns your hand it most likely too lean....

oilyhans
i own a scooter shop  with rentals ,sales& racing parts.
i also appraise scooters for KBB.

2003 Vino classic stage 0.75
de-reged stock variator w/8g sliding weights.
1.5k rpm  springs
42mph
2005 veniceLX ~70cc~upjet~1.5k rpm springs & 7gr sliders
46mph
KeyWest de restricted~8gr slide


kennedyrd

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That's a good idea Harry about the exhaust pipe!  Never heard that one before. By the way I see on your shop site your CDI's say not tested on R50X. I think you can say the one with the advance curve has been tested as that's the one I am using! Just cut that brown wire!

Meatshake. That's rubbish about jet size, larger number, less flow. The Dellorto jets we are using are real simple as the size represents the hole diameter in mm so a 70 is .70mm. I have seen advertised on scooter websites welding tip cleaners to ream your jets out! Works too, as I tried it. Though you see it written, I have never found it in practice, that if you enlarge the hole on  jets you alter the tapered lead into the jet and can actually decrease the flow. I think it is one of those theoretical ideas that could happen, but in practice never does, so maybe that's what you read.

Sounds like you are in New Zealand and have a bucket racer project? Not sure where you are but if you are near Palmerston North there is a real whizz on the dyno Chris Osbourne. Heard of him? He used to work on the GP teams in Europe and he has dynoed my GP Bikes for jetting for Av Gas. A few dollars with him saves countless hours trying to fine tune yourself. A lot of dynos are not comfortable doing 2 strokes.


meatshake

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That's a good idea Harry about the exhaust pipe!  Never heard that one before. By the way I see on your shop site your CDI's say not tested on R50X. I think you can say the one with the advance curve has been tested as that's the one I am using! Just cut that brown wire!

Meatshake. That's rubbish about jet size, larger number, less flow.

I meant relative to the to the carb size, so larger carb diameter = smaller jet, for the same amount of flow, as the larger carb should be sucking more air and fuel in regardless. Either way I feel that the scoot is still running a bit rich on a 70 jet. After a bit of WOT the plug is still a bit wet, and the engine also takes a while to settle back down to idle (i read somewhere this is a symptom of rich running also?)

And I'm in Australia! No bucket racer project here, just bought this bike a few years ago not running and it's taken me this long to be motivated enough to get it on the road.

but heres a clue  can you put your hand in the exhaust  right at the
tail pipe ?  if you can hold it there for some time  your
probably  ok if it burns your hand it most likely too lean....

oilyhans

I will give that a go! Nice and simple.


kennedyrd

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Oh sorry. No it's exactly the opposite, larger carb size means larger jets as the air VELOCITY is slower through the bigger carb. Do you remember Bernoulis theorem from school? Basically the slower the air speed over the needle jet opening (which is right angles to the direction of air travel) the less suction, so the less fuel drawn through the jet. This is also why a bigger carb gives poor response at low speed. 72 may be about right as though it is a bigger carb you also have a bigger motor. Just do a plug chop and it will at least give you some idea.